I was originally going to write about that mother in law from hell email, but as we all know it was a hoax Is Mother in Law from Hell email saga an elaborate PR stunt? an ingenious one at that; like the Boy in the Balloon Hoax. Why people do this I don't really understand it's a bit crazy really and it got me thinking about hoaxes in general and then my mind landed on that quote by French poet Charles Baudelaire:
'The greatest hoax the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he does not exist' (also one of Kevin Spacey's lines from the 1995 movie "The Usual Suspects").
Why you may ask? Well I am a Christian, which means I have a personal relationship with God but recently I have been thinking over the few times when I have come across people who may have presented as too holy (in my own personal opinion). When I say too holy I mean people who when they speak you know they are religious but they appear to be overzealous and everything they say is interspersed with an 'Amen', 'Halleluiah' or 'my God' and 'sin'.
I remember growing up there was a lady who lived close by who I would often see going about her daily life. Now from having previous dealings with her over holiness; on some occasions when I realized that our paths might cross my course of action (and other peoples) was to cross over to the other side of the road! It is bad now when I think about it, but to my young mind she seemed waaayy out there; and at one point I remember knowing things about her such as she was on a diet of fruit and water only (due to her faith) which seemed bizarre to me at the time as she was really skinny already.
Growing up my mother being catholic raised us children in the Catholic faith. We went to Catholic Church on Sunday and attended Catholic schools.
As we got older me and Sel would often go to a friends Baptise church on a Sunday which was really nice and although different to the Catholic church going there did not create any discord in my faith. That was until one day a lady in the church asked Sel what our mother's religion was; when Sel told her our mother was Catholic the lady did not miss a beat in declaring 'She is going to hell!'
I remember Sel telling me about it at the time and again in my young mind it was not my mother's eternal damnation that concerned me, rather this ladies clear lack of insight into how crazy she was!
You see the people I have encountered over the years who appear too holy usually had a knack for appearing judgemental, harsh and unmoving. However it does say in God's word: 'I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth'. Revelations 3:15-16
Those people I have encountered when younger definitely appeared hot; they had a hunger for God and a desire to do God's work.
Even so when I was younger encountering such people was very off putting and over the years I have also known other people to say things like 'those Christian's are the worst!' presumably because they have encountered too holy Christian people too.
Maybe I should clarify I don't think there is anything wrong with having a passion for God (why call yourself a Christian if you don't?) However I think were things go astray is when judgment comes in. When like the lady above without knowing a person personally (knowing someone’s heart) you make judgements like: 'She is going to hell!'
I guess my point is everyone who believes in God is on their own personal walk/path and what God has called someone to do will be different from someone else.
Going back to the quote: 'The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was fooling the world into thinking he does not exist', it makes sense why we would be overzealous and also the bible talks of edification not just of ourselves but your brothers and sisters in Christ as well, however remember it also says:
'You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.' Matthew 7:5, also see Luke 6:42
I'll be honest as I finished typing this a thought just hit me... Am I lukewarm? I guess that is for me to work out, as I believe as Christian's what counts is our own personal relationship with God; also I have learnt if I feel judged, it's not always the case that I am being judged also even if I am being judged so what? What counts is am I good with God? and also have I judged someone in a way in which I am prepared for God to judge me? (I'm gonna be judged regardless). Romans 14 is great for highlighting this.
The whole point of this post I guess is to ask you BDSS'ers is there such a thing as too holy? or too judgemental when it comes to faith? Have you ever encountered an overzealous person of faith? Has it been a stumbling block for you in your own faith?
*Disclaimer I am aware me talking about people being over holy is me making a judgement in itself but for the sake of the post (hopefully generating debate) I'm going to just run with it!
Interesting Article Sian, I have responded to this question at the following link called "Response"
ReplyDeletehttp://response2blogs.blogspot.com
Be blessed
Aubrey :)
Hello Aubrey thanks for your comment, I have read your response and it is wonderful.
ReplyDeleteI think the older lady I refer to was also known as a bible basher around the neighbourhood! ha
Thanks for defining what holy means:
'If we look at the root word of Holy it means to be dedicated, consecrated or set apart for God'
I agree with what you say at the end of your response:
'There are so-called believers that are hyper critical of others and have forgotten the foundation of love that is required to evangelise the gospel'
I have no real belief in God but respect faith of others. Has the woman got the right to say someone is hell bound? without knowing her basis for the statement I can't say. however some people get high off the thought of hell fire and brimstone.
ReplyDeletemy natural sense of fairness leads me to say a sort of heavenly salvation comes to those who believe in a particular deity - I'll conclude think she is spiritually bitter (whatever that means)
As Aubrey explained we have to understand what is to be Holy?? I just think the words is over zealous or overly spiritual... I understand what you are saying and those folks annoy the heck out me too. They tend to put you off your faith or put those who are searching to even search. I myself am a Christian and accept that I have faults, make mistakes but by the grace of God he has forgiven me and i try to let the Christ in me guide my behaviour and convict me so that i don't make the same mistakes and even let the Christ in me convict me into being more Christ like to pick up my cross and walk with him. This walk is not just about talking about it but importantly being about and letting his light shine through me in EVERYTHING i do. However folks who don't believe that its a walk & people will make mistakes and people are learning. Forgive those who are over zealous because they don't know and by knowing its about spending time in your word, i make it a point for me to pray its not about 30 minutes prays, its as the spirit leads but its about the time i take out of my day to be with my saviour, its about going to a church to come together learn together lean on each other and love each other. Iron sharpens iron
ReplyDeleteI find that some people think being a Christian is separate but its part of your everyday life its not just for Sunday or for your Christian only friends but you are Christ like everyday and if you put your faith out God will make a way where it seems impossible... I'm going away from the subject.
I just think folks need to read their word and truly look at what Christ how he lived, its not this loud overly out there, folks knew what he stood for by the way he lived and off course what he did and said, there really should be no need for folks to be so bright look at me because Christ simply didn't live like that. The best way to spread the word is by the way you live your actions, your approach and attitude is the best way to spread the word, plus we now have technology, twitter, facebook, youtube, vimeo, bebo the list goes on
Hi All
ReplyDeleteNice post Si,
As I read it along with the comments and Aubrey's blog, the picky side of me came out. Let me explain what I mean.
If you (by you I mean any invidual, not you personally) consider someone is coming across as too holy, are you thinking that the person is too good? (for the sake of simplicity I'm equating holy with good)
If the person is too good does, that mean the person observing would like them to be less good in order for them to fit into whatever "box" makes the observer comfortable?
To be honest I don't think this is your point at all (hence, my picky side)
What I think you're saying is that the person used their personal view of what was right from a Christian perspective and chose to offer instruction in a far from Christ like manner. As a result, not being very holy at all.
with that in mind, I don't think you can be too holy. I think as soon as you step outside of loving God first and your neighbour as yourself (including speaking in uncaring, unloving ways), you step out of being holy.
With regards to the comment about going to hell, to a lot of Christians, Catholics are not Christians. As such, I think this person's opinion may be stemming from the idea that if Jesus is the only way to be saved from hell and other faiths (including catholics) aren't putting their faith in Him and Him alone, then it's a simple fact that they're all going to hell.
My own point of view is that I understand where that thinking is coming from as far as Catholicism is concerned because of the different practices/habits/traditions that seem to remove the average person from the equation of realtionship with God and praying to Mary and abstinance from sex and so on. However I think a Catholic that is truly committed to Jesus Christ and believes in Him as Lord and Saviour and has a personal relationship with Him, is assured of a place in Heaven. That person, along with everyone else that meets that criteria of believing he died for our sins and accepts the gift of that sacrifice and confesses He is Lord, is Holy in the eyes of God.
Remember God is pure good and He cannot tolerate us as we are in our fallen nature. When we accept the gift of salvation from Jesus we are like the prodigal son who came home after squandering all he had, smelling like a pig farm (imagine that from a Jewish perspective). Our Dad put a ring of authority on our finger and a cloak fit for royalty on our unclean shoulders and draws us to Himself and hugs us with no care about how dirty we once may have been. The blood of Jesus spilt on the cross does that for us.
We all (saved and unsaved alike) sin and get things wrong (wether deliberately or accidentally) and even when we are wronged we need to forgive, correct and instruct each other in love, even if it doesn't always feel like it's what we want to do.
Just my understanding of it all......
Andy i disagree with that even though you are committed, a believer and have a relationship that that will get you into heaven. One can't do something eg, praying to Mary, using the rosary and still get into heaven because they believe, either you fully believe and follow correctly or you don't, one shouldn't pick and choose the things they agree with and the things they don't. Firstly God is a jealous God as its says in Exodus 34:14 Joshua 24:19, deuteronomy 5:9 etc secondly the making of saints is not biblical who on earth has the authority to saint anyone when romans 3:23 talks about all of us falling short of the glory of God. How does the pope manage to be the holy father, that is blasphemous, which is an unforgivable sin as matthew 12:31 states, only God can be the holy father, you have to ask who gave the pope that title?? If you think about the people in the bible not even the people closest to Jesus ever called themselves holy. Lastly praying to Mary to get to Jesus is just very wrong because Mary is not someone we are to worship or pray to or make idols out of which is what they have made her Leviticus 19:4, 26:1 Leviticus 26:30 tell us the consequences of such practises. John 14:6 tells us that Jesus is the way, the, truth and life and no one comes to the father accept through him (Jesus) so why do they use Mary.
ReplyDeleteLastly not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God as Matthew 7:12 tell us. they are many sheeps in wolves clothing. That is why even if you go to a bible based church with bible based teaching we are told search scriptures as in act 17:11 which shows of the Berean Jews that searched scripture to see if what Paul was saying matched what is in the bible, most importantly its about personal relationship in praying, reading and to also fellowship.
One won't know this unless you read you word
I completely agree with Janice, wow I will look into those scriptures given Sis Powerful!!! The history of Catholicism is marked with the blood of the Saints in the Name of Christ. Religion takes people back to Bondage but relationship with God on his terms through his word is the Key!! :)
ReplyDeleteThis is one of those topics, where everyone comes out quoting scriptures to back up their own point of view. At the end of the day just as the pope is a spirital leader for catholics, so to is that pastor or church in the home leader that tells you how to interpret a particular bible scripture.
ReplyDeleteIts all about dogma and doctrine.
@madeformakeup, I've looked over my post and I can see clearly that your interpretation of what I wrote is absolutely understandable and I must say your knowledge is very impressive. I must also state that I fully agree with you. I just need to clarify what I meant.
ReplyDeleteWhat I tried (poorly perhaps) to get across was the concept of truly seeking Christ and Him alone. I don't think it matters which spiritual background a person is coming from as long as they genuinely turn to Him. God will show an individual what they need to let go of, whether religous practices, physical habits or anything else we as human beings are likely to be doing in one way or another. I do believe the people "higher up" the food chain in Catholicsm are in for a rough time when called by God to give an account, but even they can truly turn their hearts to Him before they die and enter into salvation. The average "follower" in the Catholic church, in my opinion, is someone seeking to fill the "God shaped hole" in their life, who has found something which seems to fit but which is not quite right. I trust God will rescue those He has called. As you pointed out we ALL fall short of the Glory, so without the intervention of Father, Son and Spirit we ALL face Hell.
I hope I've been a bit clearer this time.
@Sel, you're right about people quoting scipture to back up their own point of view, but I think that's what we're supposed to do, I think however some people will use the bits that make their point and forget the verses just before or after the show the true context. This is where spiritual relationship with God comes into play. Even the Devil used scripture to back up his attempts to get Jesus to obey him. So having the word alone is no indication of being on the right path. The thing about Christianity is the it can come over as a bit of an "exclusive club" because our founder says the only way to be saved is through Him. It seems from my limited understanding that most (if not all) other faiths\belief systems\religions are content to have an "all paths lead to the same god" kind of thing going on. This could be the foundation of the "New World Order" I've been hearing about for years but never quite understood. All "religions" happily coexist as one until there is only one religion and everyone in it serving one god. The trouble is that "god" wont be the God Christ is is leading us to, but the god of this world (see 2 Corinthians 4:4)which is Satan.
ReplyDeleteSo bringing this back to your comment, the spritual leaders are right to guide us in interpreting what we read in the scriptures but the relationship with the Spirit and meditating on the word ourselves is how we develop as Christians, otherwise we're living off of someone elses gift. God poured out his spirit on all flesh so that we all might know Him personally.
Dogma and Doctrine are what turn faith into religion.
Christ is a gentleman He doesn't force His way into anyones life, no one has the right to force Him on on to anyone. No parent, no sibling, no friend, no workmate,no neighbour, no religious/faith leader or anyone else a person may encounter in their life. But when He calls, and that person turns to Him they will learn why being in that "exclusive club" is the right (and best) place to be.
One of the difficulties that I (and quite a few others) have with Catholicsm is the fact that there seem to be quite a lot of elements of that faith that contrdict quite clear biblical teachings, like praying to Mary, calling priests "father" and the pope "holy father", the roasary, the idea that no one can be saved outside of roman cathoclic communion at the hand of a roman catholic priest as well as the many deaths in the name of catholicism by the Roman Catholic "church". there is a lot of deception at the heart of that organisation and unfortunately the effects of that run down on to the followers.
Roman Catholics (like All of us) need to seek the Spirit of God for themselves. Then they can break free from this faith of questionable practices.
@Sel, you're right about people quoting scipture to back up their own point of view, but I think that's what we're supposed to do, I think however some people will use the bits that make their point and forget the verses just before or after the show the true context. This is where spiritual relationship with God comes into play. Even the Devil used scripture to back up his attempts to get Jesus to obey him. So having the word alone is no indication of being on the right path. The thing about Christianity is the it can come over as a bit of an "exclusive club" because our founder says the only way to be saved is through Him. It seems from my limited understanding that most (if not all) other faiths\belief systems\religions are content to have an "all paths lead to the same god" kind of thing going on. This could be the foundation of the "New World Order" I've been hearing about for years but never quite understood. All "religions" happily coexist as one until there is only one religion and everyone in it serving one god. The trouble is that "god" wont be the God Christ is is leading us to, but the god of this world (see 2 Corinthians 4:4)which is Satan.
ReplyDeleteSo bringing this back to your comment, the spritual leaders are right to guide us in interpreting what we read in the scriptures but the relationship with the Spirit and meditating on the word ourselves is how we develop as Christians, otherwise we're living off of someone elses gift. God poured out his spirit on all flesh so that we all might know Him personally.
Dogma and Doctrine are what turn faith into religion.
Christ is a gentleman He doesn't force His way into anyones life, no one has the right to force Him on on to anyone. No parent, no sibling, no friend, no workmate,no neighbour, no religious/faith leader or anyone else a person may encounter in their life. But when He calls, and that person turns to Him they will learn why being in that "exclusive club" is the right (and best) place to be.
One of the difficulties that I (and quite a few others) have with Catholicsm is the fact that there seem to be quite a lot of elements of that faith that contrdict quite clear biblical teachings, like praying to Mary, calling priests "father" and the pope "holy father", the roasary, the idea that no one can be saved outside of roman cathoclic communion at the hand of a roman catholic priest as well as the many deaths in the name of catholicism by the Roman Catholic "church". there is a lot of deception at the heart of that organisation and unfortunately the effects of that run down on to the followers.
Roman Catholics (like All of us) need to seek the Spirit of God for themselves. Then they can break free from this faith of questionable practices.
Great post Si and great comments too! I've had a run in or two with with people that are very judgemental due to their religious beliefs especially when I fell pregnant at a young age. The funny thing is that the same people who passed judgement on me were the same people that had many skeletons in their closet that were far from Godly. I use to get a religious newspaper through the door, and I really didn't like how it concentrated on what material wealth you can have if you do ABC, it just seemed wrong to me, and was almost as if you follow this church and you can get a new car or big house. Having read some of the comments on your post I'm not sure if there is such a thing as too holy but I do think there is a way of doing things if you want to share your faith without being judgemental. I've seen people put off cerain religions because of the way that they have been introduced.
ReplyDelete@ Bi
ReplyDeleteunfortunately there are people that will talk about the speck in your eye while forgetting the plank in their own. Pregnancy is something that everyone can look at and guess what you were doing to get that way, so you have to face the music in a very public way. My Christian understanding is that sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is not what God wants from/for us. I've heard that children generally do better if they've been conceived and raised in a 'married mum and dad' environment (I know there are exceptions). However I know that firstly not everyone believes in this way of thinking, secondly even if you do, self control is not always on your mind, especially when your downstairs area is about to get some attention.
I'd like to say this to every woman that is, or has been, pregnant in what some would see as less than ideal circumstances:
First and foremost your child is not a mistiake, no matter the circumstances of their conception (yes I am including rape in that), difficulties in pregnancy, disabilites or anything else, that little being was meant to be here even if only for a short time. So you don't have to (or have the right to) treat your baby/babies as embarassing, especially as a result of judgement from someone who I guarantee has their own issues that just happen to be easier to hide from human eyes.
Does this mean I condone 'sinning'? No, but the child is only the product of the 'mechanics' that were in place before their mother was born.
Even if you follow Christianity you make mistakes that are easy to spot as sin. Sex with anyone but your spouse is one of them. Somewhere in history all sex became something dirty, even within the marriage context. I think this may have something to do with one of my pet hates, which is people saying they "FELL" pregnant AAAARRRGGGGH. As if you tripped and when you got up there was this inexplicable swelling in the abdominal area and when you went to the doctor to check it out the pregnant fairy struck again. (Sorry, my little rant there, when I read it in your post I was compelled to comment on it. :o) )
My point is, because somewhere in peoples' mind sex is dirty (I know I'm generalising), the pregnancy that happens because of it is somehow wrong, along with the baby.
I know I am far from an expert in this area and I seem to have gone on about one aspect of your post a bit much perhaps, it's just what was stirred up from reading your comments.
As far as the material wealth and church thing is concerned, I see it like this:
If a church (or any other organisation) makes you uncomfortable in any area (including money), take your concern to the leadership of that body. If you can't get satisfactory feedback, consider going somewhere else (if at all possible) for what it is you are seeking.
I think it's right for us to earn money to have a life we consider to be comfortable, but also to help others. It's harder to help others materially when we ourselves need help materially, and sometimes people need more than just a prayer. They might need food or a coat or a place to stay and God might just want to use you to help that person. If you're worried about where your next meal is coming from you're less likely to be open to helping someone else.
That said, sometimes we can get too caught up in acquiring wealth just for the sake of having stuff. The end result is a person may be rich but their wealth is purely for their own benefit. Sadly, this is true for some Christians (including church leaders) just like everyboy else.
I think if you want to share your faith (whatever that may be) with people you should allow those people the freedom to reject your particular belief system. That way they are free to accept it without pressure or prejudice. Your job is to offer the information about the faith and have faith that you've done your part, leaving the rest up to God or whatever significant element your faith is centred on.
I hope I've made sense.
Hi Andy thank you for your comment which for some reason isn't on here. It was very insightful to read and reflect upon. Ok ok I will from now on stop saying 'fell pregnant' sometimes you can get so use to saying things without thinking of the roots of the words :)
ReplyDelete